TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. To conclude our archive series R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock 'n' Roll, we have the interview I recorded with Allen Toussaint, who was in our studio at the piano and sang some of the early hit songs he wrote. Toussaint was an important but mostly behind the scenes figure in New Orleans rhythm and blues during the '50s and '60s, when R&B was shaping the sound of early rock 'n' roll. Early in his career, he was the chief songwriter, producer, arranger and pianist for Minit Records, which at the time was the most important New Orleans record company. He and a partner formed their own label in the '60s.
The songs he wrote and/or arranged and produced include "Working In The Coal Mine," "Mother-In-Law," "Lipstick Traces," "Ruler Of My Heart," It's Raining," "Right Place Wrong Time," "Lady Marmalade," "Yes We Can" and "Southern Nights." Among the musicians he worked with were the Meters, the Rolling Stones, Paul Simon, the Band and Paul McCartney. After stepping out from behind the scenes, Toussaint also became known for his own recordings and performances, including his collaboration with Elvis Costello. Toussaint died in 2015 at the age of 77. I spoke with him in 1988.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: Allen Toussaint, welcome back to FRESH AIR.
ALLEN TOUSSAINT: Thank you.
GROSS: I'm going to ask you, I'm going to start with a request (laughter) to play one of the songs - one of the first songs that was a big hit for you that you wrote, "Mother-In-Law"?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, yes, it was one of our very first ones.
GROSS: This was originally recorded by Ernie K-Doe.
TOUSSAINT: Right.
GROSS: Could you play it for us your way?
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) The worst person I know, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She worries me so, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Every time I open my mouth, she steps in and tries to put me out. How could she stoop so low? Mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Why, Satan could've been her name, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. To me, they're about the same, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. If she'd leave us alone, we would have a happy home. Sent from down below, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Mother-in-law, mother-in-law. I come home with my pay, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She asked me what I made, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She thinks her advice is a contribution, but if she would leave that would be the solution. And don't come back no more, mother-in-law, mother-in-law, mother-in-law.
GROSS: So how old were you when you wrote that?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, let's see. I guess 21 or 22.
GROSS: Were you married?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, no.
GROSS: Right (laughter).
TOUSSAINT: But mother-in-law was a national joke.
GROSS: That's true. It really was at the time. Things have changed (laughter).
TOUSSAINT: The mother-in-laws themselves weren't national jokes, but most comedians used to use that.
GROSS: That's right. So how did you first start writing songs?
TOUSSAINT: Well, I came up imitating most people that I heard on the radio. I imitated most piano players, of course, and most all kinds of music. And after I would play and become totally saturated with it, I would sit and randomly play around. So little melodies came, and that started my writing.
GROSS: You know, I think two of your influences have been Fats Domino and Professor Longhair, two of the great New Orleans musicians. Do you think that - I mean, I think they can be heard in your style. Would you play something of theirs and tell us how they affected you?
TOUSSAINT: Oh, yes. Well, Professor Longhair, I must say, of the local people - local meaning New Orleans and the New Orleans area - has been the strongest influence on my playing, and even some of my writing, the way I construct certain things. Early Professor Longhair, things like...
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: When I first heard that as a child, that just knocked me out. And later on, Professor Longhair began to add things to his music like...
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: Yes, he was very, very important to me.
GROSS: Was it hard to learn that when you were young?
TOUSSAINT: Not hard. It was very, very exciting. Once I heard it, I could get involved. It was just the idea of it, how unique it was to me. It was off the beaten path of most other things that were all generally related in some fashion. But Professor Longhair didn't seem related to anyone else who was out there at the time.
GROSS: Now, I remember one of your early recording sessions was filling in for Fats Domino because his piano track hadn't been laid down yet. You really could play in Fats Domino's style, Professor Longhair's and Ray Charles'. How did you learn how to play like Fats Domino?
TOUSSAINT: Well, Fats Domino was flooding the market. He had so many recordings out. And he discovered a secret to success with triplets.
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: So as a child, that was - I could immediately hear what that was. And most of his recordings had that in it, except for one, "The Fat Man," which I thought was very exciting. But he never recorded any more like that, which was a very different kind of piano. It was kind of raunchy, like...
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: Which was wonderful, but he never played like that again except maybe on one other tune. The rest of them was - turned out to be mostly...
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: Like the one, "I Want You To Know," that I played on it.
GROSS: Right, right, right.
TOUSSAINT: Dave Bartholomew, who knew that I could play like most of the folk that were out at the time, called me in to play on a Fats Domino recording session. We were up to two tracks at that time, so we could do wonderful things. And he called me in to play like Fats would play this song, and I went in and did...
(PIANO PLAYING)
GROSS: That's really great (laughter). My guest, if you're just joining us, is Allen Toussaint. And I should say, you know, I always, you know, whenever I've said your name, one day it would be Toussaint and one day it would be Toussaint. And so I asked you how I should really say it, and you said Toussaint. But your father's side of the family used to say Toussaint?
TOUSSAINT: My father used to say Toussaint without a T on the end.
GROSS: It seems very common for New Orleans families to have different pronunciations of their names.
TOUSSAINT: Oh, yes. Bagneris, Bagneris, yes.
GROSS: We're listening to my 1988 interview with Allen Toussaint. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "YES WE CAN CAN")
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) Yeah. I know we can make it if we try. Oh, yes, we can. I know we can, can. Yes, we can. Great gosh almighty, yes, we can. I know we can, can.
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1988 interview with Allen Toussaint, who first made his mark as one of the key songwriters, arrangers and producers in New Orleans R&B of the '50s and '60s.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR CONTENT)
GROSS: I'm going to ask you to play another song of yours, a song that you wrote. Maybe do another one of your early hits.
TOUSSAINT: Well, "Lipstick Traces." The guy, Benny Spellman, that sung the bass part on "Mother-In-Law," he didn't know what it was worth at the time we were doing it. But when "Mother-In-Law" came out and sold and went to No. 1, let's say, Benny Spellman that sung the bass part made show that everyone within the sound of his voice got to know that he sung that part. And he would go around - he would gig based on he sung the low part on "Mother-In-Law." And he encouraged me...
GROSS: (Laughter).
TOUSSAINT: ...With much force to write him a song that he could use that concept. And one result of that was this song, "Lipstick Traces."
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) Your pretty brown eyes. You wavy hair. I won't go home no more 'cause you're not there. I've got it bad, like I told you before. I'm so in love with you. Don't leave me no more. Lipstick traces on a cigarette. Every memory lingers with me yet. I've got it bad, like I told you before. I'm so in love with you. Don't leave me no more. Won't you come back home? Won't you come back home? 'Cause I'm crazy about you, can't do without you. Won't you come back home? Lipstick traces on a cigarette. Every memory lingers with me yet. I've got it bad, like I told you before. I'm so in love with you, don't leave me no more, leave me no more. Don't leave me no more, leave me no more. Mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Don't leave me no more.
I guess you can see how that happened.
GROSS: (Laughter) He really owed you one after you wrote that for him.
TOUSSAINT: Oh, thank you.
GROSS: (Laughter) I love it when you can do both parts as you're singing the high part and the low part.
TOUSSAINT: Oh, thank you. Yes.
GROSS: (Laughter) Now, another song you wrote that was a big hit, I guess it was the early '60s, "Working In The Coal Mine."
TOUSSAINT: Oh, yes.
GROSS: Lee Dorsey recorded it?
TOUSSAINT: Lee Dorsey, yes.
GROSS: Now, I remember when I interviewed you a few months back, you explained that you had never been in a coal mine when you wrote this song.
TOUSSAINT: Not only never been, I don't know no one - know anyone who's ever been in a coal mine. And I don't know why that came. Lee Dorsey was a great inspiration for me. When it was time to write for him, I would just sit back and begin to listen to the sound of his voice. And one day, while sitting on St. Philip Street in New Orleans, I heard him saying working in the coal mine, going down, down, down. I have no idea why. But he was a great inspiration. His voice sounded like a smile to me, and I wrote lots of songs for him. Yes.
GROSS: Would you do it for us?
TOUSSAINT: We'll give it a go.
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) Working in the coal mine, going down, down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Working in the coal mine, going down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Five o'clock in the morning, I'm already up and gone. Lord, I'm so tired. How long can this go on now? Working in the coal mine, going down, down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Working in the coal mine, going down, down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Of course, I make a little money hauling coal by the ton. But when Saturday rolls around, I'm too tired for having fun. Too tired for fun now. Working in the coal mine, going down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Working in the coal mine, going down, down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Lord, I'm so tired. How long can this go on?
GROSS: Good, that sounds great. Songwriter, pianist, producer, singer Allen Toussaint is my guest. And I'm going to ask you to do another song. You know, I've been listening to a lot of Irma Thomas lately. She has a new record out. And you wrote some of her early songs. And you wrote a song she sings on her new record, as a matter of fact. I'm going to ask you to sing one of her earlier songs that you wrote for her called "It's Raining." Would you do that?
(PIANO PLAYING)
TOUSSAINT: (Singing) It's raining so hard. Looks like it's going to rain all night. And this is the time I'd love to be holding you tight. I guess I'll have to accept the fact that you're not here. I wish this rain would hurry up and end my dear. I've got the blue so bad, I can hardly catch my breath. And the harder it rains, the worse it gets. This is the time I'd love to be holding you tight, but I guess I'll just go crazy tonight.
GROSS: Is there a story behind writing this song?
TOUSSAINT: Well, with Irma, again, she was sitting right there that day. And it was raining. And Irma was a great inspiration for me. I could write for her all day long, and sometimes I did.
GROSS: (Laughter).
TOUSSAINT: And she was sitting there, and it was raining, and I could see the rain hitting on the windowpane. And it was just perfect, yes.
GROSS: Well, it has really been such a pleasure to hear you play and sing. Thank you so much for joining us, really. Thank you very, very much.
TOUSSAINT: My pleasure.
GROSS: Allen Toussaint recorded in 1988. He died in 2015. He was 77. And with that, we conclude our archive series R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock 'n' Roll. I hope you enjoyed it. After a break, our jazz historian Kevin Whitehead remembers alto saxophonist Art Pepper, who was born 100 years ago today. This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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